Ep 8: Building a sustainable anti-racism practice with Jo Gillard and Anja Naundorf-Adu

During this episode, I speak with Jo Gillard and Anja Naundorf-Adu, two dear friends and partners on this path of doing what we can to build an anti-racist practice.

We met during Thérèse Cator’s “Embodied Solidarity” program, which is open for enrollment at the time this episode was recorded. It goes without saying, but Anja, Jo, and I highly recommend this program.

Working on anti-racism is an ongoing commitment. It’s a topic that brings up so many emotions it can feel overwhelming. So slowing down, being gentle, and understanding what’s going on in our bodies is a crucial part of engaging with it.

In this conversation, we dive into our personal journeys with dismantling racism, how we support each other in that process, the people and resources that have and continue to inspire and assist us, the term “white privilege”, the “white spiritual woman” bubble, the role of religion in oppression and our responsibility to do the work.

About our salon guests:

Anja Naundorf-Adu is a white german mother co-parenting her mixed-race child in a majority white environment. Aside from working a corporate job and making a home for herself and her kid, she is stumbling through the shadows of internalized racism and white supremacy in order to make her family and community a bit more safe in regard to racial discrimination. Anja believes, the foundation of any tangible societal change lies within white peoples' individual and communal work of dismantling their very own internalized ideas of racial superiority and whiteness. She leans into a strong vision of the liberation of all human beings, rooted in Audre Lourde's “I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.”

Jo Gillard's passion lies in helping people enhance their experience and enjoyment of life, by weaving their soul-fuelled dreams into reality. She works with inspirational humans who have a deep desire to know themselves and why they are here on this planet. By guiding them on a journey of deep self-discovery toward heart and soul-aligned clarity, as well as building up the courage to follow their inspiration, she helps them to align with their highest soul purpose, to embody and express their truth and begin truly loving their lives. A critical element of Jo’s coaching is the safe space she holds for clients to explore aspects of themselves that can be uncomfortable and vulnerable, she is committed to continually exploring how she can grow and expand this capacity by consciously seeking out where she may have unconscious bias and needs further work to truly lovingly hold safe space for all beings on this planet.

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In this conversation, we discuss:

01:45 Where we’re coming from - Anja

03:15 Where we’re coming from - Jo

06:05 Where we’re coming from - Josette

09:25 The trigger term “privilege”

12:05 Dismantling internalised racism

15:00 Equipping yourself for this work

16:45 Bypassing the pain

21:00 The “white spiritual woman” bubble

24:35 The role of religion in oppression

29:30 Working with the book “Me and white supremacy”

35:10 Responsibility and humility in self-education

39:50 Find your people, do the work

Resources:

Thérèse Cator - Leadership Coach, Embodiment Practitioner, Healer – Anja, Jo, and Josette met during her program, “Embodied Solidarity“ which we all highly recommend. Please also listen to her “Embodied Black Girl“ podcast.

Layla F. Saad - World-famous for her book Me and white supremacy, and “Good Ancestor Podcast“. Anja also did some of her online masterclasses, which she had offered before. Her article I need to talk to spiritual white women about white supremacy was a catalyst for many white women.
Rachel Cargle - https://rachelcargle.com/ Anja referred to her quote “white women's circles are their dinner tables“. She offers a wealth of further resources. Anja participated in her Summer Reading Discussion Series and worked through her #DoTheWork Course before.
Andre Henry - Anja binged on his “Hope and hard Pills“ podcast as well as his music. His book All the white friends I couldn't keep is now available.
Mudrooroo – The book, Us Mob, was Anja’s first-ever contact with a non-white, non-eurocentric resource, that she keeps coming back to for reference, as her understanding of how racism as a system and structure evolves.
Sandra Kim of WildSeed Society - Anja strongly recommends signing up for the self-paced online program, Healing from Internalized Whiteness.
Akala – Definitely read his book Natives: Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire, check out his music project “Fire in the Booth” and find literally EVERY Akala talk and article available online: https://akalamusic.com/
Johnny Pitts – Check out his book and web project Afropean

Germany (German language resources)

Tupoka Ogette - https://www.tupoka.de/ - Anja loves and strongly recommends her book “Exit Racism“ as a starting point in exploring colonial continuities and racism in Germany, as well as her book “Und jetzt DU“. Also check out her podcast “Tupodcast“ – Talking with sisters and her learning platform “Tupokademie“
Noah Sow - noahsow.de – Noah Sow Homepage und Blog - read her groundbreaking book “Deutschland Schwarz weiß“. It's a classic! Also read “Die Schwarze Madonna“ and check out her radio feature “Radio Meta“.
Tsepo Bollwinkel - Willkommen/welcome - Tsepo Bollwinkel Empowerment - Anja had the honour to organize two workshops with him for parents/caretakers of Black children. Find his many brilliant talks and speeches centering the Black experience in Germany and look out for workshop announcements.
Frank Joung - halbekatoffl.de - Halbekatofl-podcast showcasing lived experiences of BIPOC in Germany
https://rosa-mag.de/ - most probably the first online magazine for Black German womxn and friends
https://www.migazin.de/ - Anja’s go-to resource around the topics of migration, integration, and racism